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Archive - Spirit of the Word - Covenant Eschatology - Introductory Note - New Stuff
"Can't love the god of ET (eternal torment)?
Then go to hell!!"Charlie:
Hi gang,Last night while reading from another message board, I read the naive and cold hearted statement of a self-styled young theologian who said this (in so many words):
"If people refuse Jesus because of the doctrine of hell, they would refuse Him ANYHOW--so let them be!"
In other words, you *MUST* love the "just and loving heavenly Father" I'm advertising who is eternally torturing your departed nonchristian loved ones--and if you cannot--then to HELL with you!!!
Here we see yet more abuse that calls itself "love"... What a classic case in point! Right?
I know of an earthly dad who treats one of his sons wonderfully and unmercifully beats, tortures, and curses his other two sons. So since, on this account, I can't trust this wretched man, does this mean that I would abhor his presence NO MATTER WHAT? Of course not! It is his cruel treatment of his 2 sons and his preferential treatment of the 1 that CAUSES me to be repelled at the thought of being in his presence and unable to trust him. I detest cruelty and favoritism! Therefore, I cannot enjoy an intimate relationship with someone who practices these evils.
Can you?
But that is exactly what many who proclaim the god of ET are requiring. You either love and trust this diabolical little deity of endless cruelty--now!--or to hell with you!
By the way, if you're a silent reader and are fed up with all of the abusive and hellish double-speak that calls itself "Christianity", I think you might enjoy reading our web page--
There IS a God who loves you! And He is NOT the god being hyped by much of current religiosity/churchianity.
Love to all,
Charlie
Neil:
Hi Charlie,I was thinking the other day about the idea of 'choice' that mainstream Christians keep bringing up in conversations that I have with them. They always seem to say something like 'God gave us free will to love Him and do what is right or be damned' to which I typically reply 'but love me or go to hell isn't really a free choice at all. Its coercion'. Then they respond with something like 'people who reject God are those that want to enjoy their sin and not have to repent and so God does the only thing He can which is to bring them to the justice that they deserve'.
Like you have said before, this is purely 'performance based'- grace is almost completely absent in this scenario. Notice how the emphasis is entirely on the individual to find God and appropriate their salvation. Since God is good and merciful, it stands to reason that the only ones who would 'reject' His offer of forgiveness and eternal bliss must be those who are wicked to the core.
Its an incredibly damaging, almost dangerous line of thinking and I don't understand why more Christians don't wrestle with it.
Charlie:
Hi Neil,You brought out some very good points. I think what reveals the diabolical origin of the doctrine, "God gave you a free will so you can choose where you will spend eternity" reveals itself in the SELF-righteous stance it requires of those who seriously embrace it.
It requires that I adopt the stance:
"*I* have found God by faithfully following the inner light of my conscience. Few EVER WILL find the narrow way. Hence, most people will fail to do as I have done and are "without excuse" for their failure, so they will perish in hell forever. *I* made a wise and timely decision and thus will get what I deserve which is "heaven" and the rest of those lazy, rotten sinners (my departed nonChristian loved ones included) will get what they deserve" which is--hell for eternity."
Horrors...
I simply CANNOT adopt that stance--not in a million "forevers". Can you?
Welcome to the Skuzzy Samaritan club!
Love you, bro--
Charlie
Patrick:
I have noticed the same thing when Free will is brought up. I remember when I posted the 20 points why a man cannot choose life under the topic of How faith comes at Carm.The part of the article that I am talking about was this, and this is much shortened from the original article posted:
Let us consider for a moment the condition of the sinner before someone is saved. I have heard many preachers declare that salvation is like a bowl of fruit that is set before all men to partake of it. Those who choose to pick up an apple, or pear enjoy the benefit of salvation. Those who don't partake of what has been freely given for all to enjoy will burn in Hell forever. When salvation is presented in this light, it clearly depends upon a person choosing whether they may enjoy salvation or not. It assumes that the person is in their right mind, and is capable of choosing salvation for himself or herself. Let us consider though the real condition of all of mankind.
1. We all love darkness more than light. John 3:19
2. We all hate the light because are deeds are evil. John 3:20
3. We cannot comprehend (lay hold of) the light. John 1:5
4. We have all turned aside, and have all together become filthy.
Psalms 4:315. We are blind Psalms 146:8; Zephaniah 1:17; Matthew 15:14; John 9:39-41; II Corinthians 4:3,4.
6. We are deaf Psalms 66:18; Matthew 11:15; Matthew 13-17; Romans 11:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.
7. The things of God are foolishness to us.
1 Corinthians 2:148. The spirit of man can only understand the things of man. Without the Spirit of God it is impossible to understand the things of the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11-14
9. We are slaves to another--sin is our taskmaster.
1 Corinthians 6:19,20; Romans 8:15; Romans 6:11-17.10. We call good evil, and evil good. Isaiah 5:20
11. We are unclean --either because of playing in the tombs, or because we have leprosy (spiritually speaking). Leviticus 11:31-40, Numbers 19:11-20, Haggai 2:13-14. Matthew 23:27,28.
12. We are not in our right minds due to the continual torment that fear has imparted. I John 4:18; 2 Timothy 1.
13. We are deceived because we are not doing the word of God.
James 1:22-25.14. We seek our own interests not the Lord's. Philippians 2:21.
15. We are spiritually dead; Romans 7:8-20; Ephesians 2:1-3.
16. We are subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him (God) who Subjected us to it. Roman 8:18-22; Genesis 5:29; Job 12:6-10.
17. Because we cannot hear, we do not have faith: Romans 10:17.
18. Without faith it is impossible for us to please God. He 11:6;
PS 78:17-39.19. We were made to lack by Elohim. (Psa 8:5, literal translation of little lower than the angels).
20. We are all liars. Romans 3:4
No matter how nice we make salvation appear to the unsaved, they are incapable of reaching out to take it. If we can perceive it, there really is nothing appealing about it in the least. In fact, from the viewpoint of the sinner, we are trying to make them eat a plate full of garbage that has been allowed to putrefy for years before being served. Needless to say, we have not even considered the fact that we do not have permission from our master, sin, to even reach out and take the fruit. We are not even our own, even though we believe we are. We are slaves to the "god of this world (Revised Standard - Romans 6:16, Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?)." We need to be made whole (saved) just so that we can make a proper decision. We need to be purchased by another before we can get permission to take a hold of salvation (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). "He who the Son sets free is free, indeed."
But how do we come unto Christ? (By this method, and for this reason "That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorys, let him glory in the Lord." (1 Cor 1:29-31)
If one truly gets to choose him then one has the opportunity to glory in the flesh, that is, in one's ability. As we read no flesh will get to glory in His presence!!!
Is it not amazing what God has called impossible: man has declared that it is possible for his free will to take hold of the Spirit of life. Even more amazing what God calls possible: man declares that it is impossible for God to save all men.
Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Genesis 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Numbers 11:23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord's hand waxed short? you shall see now whether my word shall come to pass unto you or not.
Job 42:2 I know that you can do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from you.
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
2 Peter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
John 1 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 11:32 For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.Is this not the greatest folly of man calling good evil, and evil good?
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Religious men say:1. It is possible to choose salvation from the fallen state of Adam nature, flesh.
2. It is impossible for God to save all men, because of men's ability to choose life, or death.God says:
1. It is impossible for man to comprehend the things of the Spirit of Life, therefore it is impossible to get saved just by mere human choice.
2. It is possible to save all men because all things are possible to him.Rom 3:3,4 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.#### reposted something along the lines 'Oh that is Hard determinism, and that is easy to disprove.' Nevertheless He never tried to disprove any of the Scriptures listed, nor did he explain what hard determinism was at that time. But to make matters worse He never disproved hard determinism either.
Recently I was sharing with another brother about the message and when it suited his needs he told me that choice was like a maze with two exits life and death being the names of the exits, and based on the previous 20 reasons I told him it was a great post until the rats were added; you know those blind, deaf, lame rats that loved darkness more than light and that were incapable of apprehending-comprehending the light-life; who called good evil and evil good. Whereupon being cornered he said something sarcastic concerning UR (universal reconciliation) like, 'Your view makes man nothing less than a rat in a maze performing for a cruel God's pleasure.'
He believes in the message of annihilation.Boy talk about a change of attitude, when it suited His needs it was a good analogy, but when it was shown to not support His idea it was used as a tool of condemnation.
It never ceases to amaze me how people want the god of free choice more than they want God to be sovereign and rule and reign in the earth.
Grace and Peace Patrick
Andy:
Hi CharlieThe pattern is nothing if not consistent, eh?
It's similar to a lot of ETers who in one breath assure me that believing in the doctrine of endless hell is secondary to faith in Christ (they just preach Jesus, after all, unlike we universalist believers) and not at all a requirement for salvation. As discussions continue, though, I'm eventually informed quite vigorously that questioning the doctrine of endless hell (especially when done by the light of scripture) is tantamount to judging God and evidence of rebellious and wicked unbelief. At some point, the circle always gets completed, and a belief in endless torment IS a requirement for salvation after all. There comes a time when even hoping that the doctrine of endless hell is untrue and that the goodness of God is unfathomably good is bitterly condemned. (Have you ever seen the responses to Christians who are uncertain about universal reconciliation in Christ but say that they hope against hope that it's true? It can get quite ugly sometimes.)
It's stunning, really, but I'm beginning to feel numbed by the incessance of such thoughtless doublespeak. I'm not certain whether that numbing is a good sign or a bad one.
Lots of love to you, Charlie.
Andy
Charlie:
Good to have you back, AndyI just wanted to say that and also to tell you that I really appreciate your posts on the other board. I mean the one where the calvinistic web master is helping, by his sour negativism and bitter spirit, to highlight to many silent readers the error of his horrifying message and the truth of this whole gospel!
Keep up the good work, Andy! Your labors are not in vain.
Love you 2--
CharlieSpirit of the Word - Covenant Eschatology - Introductory Note - New Stuff