|
|||||||
|
|
|
|||||
|
|
|||||||
Posted by Charlie
In Reply to: I don't think you're hearing me Charlie
posted by #####
Charlie:
I read in one of your posts to ***** that you never perceived God's Presence as "overwhelming" you, and that making a choice was something you always felt you could do. That's okay--it really is. One CANNOT reach the bottom until one reaches the bottom. But your sincere words are a strong indicator that the illusion of--you--being "in control" has not yet been shattered in your life. It was shattered in my life many years ago by mind-numbing sexual and chemical addictions and suicidal manic depression and finally insanity--and then--God himself breaking through to reveal his *committed* love and setting me free. But you cannot be blamed for what you have not yet experienced. But your present experience of feeling that "you" can always make choices DOES color your present ideology. No #####, you never really "saw" the grace of God in universal reconciliation. You would talk differently if you had. You just became intellectually "friendly" with the idea for a time. Now for your reply to my last post and and my repsonses--#####:
: And I don't blame you, since you think what I am saying is satanic.
Oh well, I have been told at times that I have been playing devil's advocate. And there I was, taking it figuratively...To clarify things for you, I want to reiterate that *God loves all*, far more than we love Him, far more. But for love to be personal transformative it must be received, and it is received by faith since God is invisible. Is receiving it a *performance*, like you want to keep insisting? It is not. Only believe, that is enough. I'm sure that the smallest flicker of faith will be sufficient to the judges of the universe.Charlie:
No #####, Infinite (Invisible!) Love Personified that demands more commitment from it's object that it is (supposedly) willing to exert is abuse--not "Love." For Scripture tells us that love reveals itself in deeds and not mere words and that it NEVER fails. (Here's yet more Scripture that you presently trivialize and ignore to maintain your present position of "devils' advocate. :) And yes, if WE must choose to love and trust
our Creator before He gives us sufficient (and ABUNDANCE of) reason to trust and love Him (as He's done for Saul of Tarsus and even for
Charlie)--it IS performance being demanded, and of the cruelest kind. For "faith~~worketh~~by love." (Yet again more Scripture you are trivializing and glossing over.)
Therefore unless Love Himself awakens, earns and nurtures
our trust, we CAN'T produce it out of "nowhere." Any good
parant knows that. And the sad news you're now embracing IS performance, because unless YOU keep relying on yourself to keep relying on God--he (Unfailing Love?) is out of here FOREVER.
Thus, God values those who perform (in THIS lifetime) and gets rid of those who do not: here is performance-based religiosity staring you right in the face.#####:
: God loves all people even before they existed, and he will love all people even after they may have ceased to exist. But it is a person's choice as to whether they want to inherit eternal life and actually continue *partaking* in the divine love. And God will honour their choice one way of the other.Charlie:
Salvation is a "gift"--ONLY BECAUSE--Love Himself
IS our Salvation never gives up. Yes, there is our part in
receiving the gift, but put a "deadline" on it (Him) and it is NOT a gift. Conditional love is always setting deadlines.
Unfailing Love is always extending life-lines.
Arminianism's "salvation" is a gamble and a "reward" for
having made sufficiently wise and timely choices in THIS
lifetime. Thus one is saved--bottom line--by one's own
wisdom. And the Holy Spirit of Christ will not fail or
become discouraged. He will continue to give them reasons
to believe Him until He convinces the WORLD of
righteousness. All men shall declare the work of the Lord
and WISELY understand His doings. For God's tender mercies
are over ALL of His works and all of them shall praise Him. This cannot be true if any of them are exterminated. Christ came to fulfill His Father's purpose and will and Scipture makes it abudantly clear that He will do so. But you know all of my proof texts and I know all of yours--so I will continue to demontrate the PRAGMATIC impossibilites
inherent in the "glad tidings" you are (presently :-) embracing. Have you forgotten that I was brought up as an Arminaian and attended four years in an Arminian bible college? Been there and done that--bigtime!#####:
: God will not strive with man forever. Perhaps that is why the OT depicts God decreasing man's life expectany from hundreds to only 120 years in the days of the flood. After a certain amount of time, men have *proven* that they want nothing to do with their Creator and Father, and giving them more time simply establishes them more deeply in
rebellion.Charlie:
Yes, Unfailing Love will NOT strive with man forever--because--His Spirit will succeed in convincing man of His goodness. He will convince the world of sin and of righteousness.#####:
: I *know* my Father Charlie, He is not a figment of my imagination. I love Him, because he has first loved me. He has won my heart by the very real presence of his love, not because I think he fulfills certain ideas I hold regarding how He should deal with unbelieving humanity. You are dismissing multitudes of God-knowing men and women of the
past as those who only believed in a figment of their
imagination and didn't perceive the 'real' God. The Spirit
says that is wrong, it is downplaying the reality of God's
loving work in the souls of men who believe, even though
they may believe somewhat wrongly, as we all do. I hold
that you have encountered the real God Charlie, and I hope
you will understand the same of others who don't believe as you do.Charlie:
Sorry #####, I should have eloborated there, so I
left you with the wrong impression. Of course you KNOW God
in you heart of hearts and He HAS profoundly impacted your
life. And the same goes for many others like yourself who
are able to keep unworthy ideas of Him "mentally back
filed" and rejoice in and exhibit His goodness, nevertheless.
Have you forgotten? I worship weekly with such wonderful Christians! God is all powerful and His Presence in my brothers and sisters--often--TRANSCENDS some of their INTELLECTUAL preceptions that are mere figments of their imagination. I'm sorry I left you feeling "un-Christianized." Will you forgive me? I do see a lot of
His goodness in you--even a guilessness that is truly a work of His Spirit. THAT is not what has "saved" you, however. It IS the work of His Spirit.#####:
: BTW, you never did reply to me about my point that
Paul saw that the believing OT Jews were the firstfruits,
not the Gentile church. No matter.Charlie:
Paul makes it clear in Romans 11:8-15 that he is NOT just speaking of O.T. believing Israel when He called Israel the firstfruit. It is there that he also says that the "lump" is the "world." Earlier I tried to
show you how that Christ Himself (the "Seed" of Abraham and the "Firstfruits" of the dead) was teaching this firstfruit truth in Jn.12:23-32. But you said that I was only reading into the text what I wanted to believe...Well, is Christ the "Firstborn of EVERY creature" (the same "every creature" to whom the gospel is to be preached) or is He not? (Col.1:15-20) Is the firstfruits of the DEAD (those who "sleep") or is He not? Paul said that TO THIS PURPOSE Christ lived and died and rose again: that he might be Lord of both THE (not some of the) dead and THE (not some of the) living. And He clearly tells us in Eph.1:9-11 that God's good pleasure and will shall be acoomplished in the fulness of the times. For He works "all things" in accordance with the counsel of His will. ("desire." Isa.55:11)
But as I've said, we both know each other's proof texts. So my intent is to show you the PRAGMATIC IMPOSSIBILITIES of Arminianism --when seriously believed and labored under in ones everyday life. It demands rigorous mental back filing and compartmentalized thinking. And that is because--bottom line--it demands that we love God with a totality of commitment that (supposedly) does not even exist in His own being. It utterly sabatoges and the greatest commandment and turns it into abusive gibberish.
The brokenhearted of this world aren't looking for "a chance to go to heaven." They thirst to know a Love that never fails--even if they fail.I've already covered this. Jesus is the Firstborn
of "every creature" and we His "co-laborers and co-heirs"
in His WORLD harvest field are partakers with Him in His
high calling to overcome the strongman, take away his
armour in which he trusted and conficate his booty and set
THE (not merely some) captives free. Hence the body of
Christ is His "fulness that fills all (not in some) but in
all." The "beginning"--so that--in "all things" (creation)
he will have the supremacy.In conclusion...Love minus commitment equals abusive nonsense. YOUR conscience knows that, and God spoke to us through the light of conscience long before any "Scriptures" were written. When I believed as you (presently say that) you "believe", #####, I --ACTUALLY-- believed it and labored under the burden of it in my DAILY life. I didn't believe it as a "point of doctrine" to defend on theology boards like this
one while living daily as though I believed (as universal salvation believers do) that God's commitment to me was stronger than mine was to Him. (As you apparantly do. You appear to trust God like a universalist and yet "believe" Armininanism.So I was bound by loads of garbage which I'm not bound by
any more. As I've told you, it was and is God's--COMMITTED--
love that set me free. And it is the absolute assurance ot His committed love that even now~~energizes~~me to love, trust, and serve Him. Nothing less ever did the job, and nothing less will ever be able
to do it. And one day... you WILL know what I'm talking
about...Love and prayers,
Charlie