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: : Charlie,: : But trust me, I really don't want to go to hell. God helps us with things we can't do ourselves.
: : In Jesus, #####
: --------------
Hi #####,
Duh, I plum forgot... You did answer one of my questions in your headliner.
Yikes! No wonder the Lord prodded me away from the discussion boards several weeks ago--besides the fact that there are so many priorities I need to address right now on the homefront. But I sensed a release a couple of days ago to jump in here for a little bit, hence my yacking on this thread.
However, I now feel I need to get back with the "program" He's ordered for yours truly!
But before signing off I just want to encourage you to consider prayerfully all I have shared in this thread. Is the glad tidings of great joy really just about having a "chance" to "make it to heaven"? Or is it about the total and universal triumph of Infinite Love Himself who bled and died for for every man, woman, boy and girl that ever was and ever will be born?
Is the glad tidings only about a "chance" to have non-stop worship services in heaven with a small few who are diligent, astute, lucky and strong-willed souls--while many of our friends and loved ones forever agonise for eternity?
If so--who but the most selfish and base of persons would find such a prospect attractive?
God told Moses that He was going to destroy Israel and preserve him alive and start a new nation with him. And Moses' response?
Was it, "SURE LORD! GO FOR IT! WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP YOU DESTROY THEM?"
By no means.
Moses PLED for Israel. He INTERCEDED for them. Moses prefered to share the lot of the destroyed over being preserved alive apart from them.
Is that your heart-attitude, #####? Do you think it would please the Lord if it were?
Remember, all of these things were written for OUR examples, upon whom the purposes of the ages have come. (I Cor.10:11) That includes all the instances where "forever" (obviously, age-pertaining) judgments were pronounced on Israel, Sodom, Eygpt, Elam, Ammon, Samaria, Moab, etc,--AND--the promise that they each would be restored.
Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He changes not. He is no respecter of persons. Our Good Shepherd came to fulfill these things that were written in the law and the prophets--not to contradict them. That's why He came, talking the prophet's "age-pertaining" language. Problem is, much of today's church would have us perceive Him as coming and talking the prophets' language but meaning something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT: lo and behold, ENDLESS punishment is now (allegedly) being introduced. And that by God's "Firstborn Kinsman Redeemer Son" who is the Kinsman Redeemer of "every creature" by whom and FOR whom "all things" were made. And by whose cross God is reconciling "all" to Himself. (Col.1:15-20) God's Son who is "full of grace and truth."
But how can Christ fulfill the law and the prophets if He doesn't fulfill the HEART of what they are all about? i.e. "Whatever you want men to do to you, you do also to them." (Matt.7:11-12)
Does our Elder Brother (who is the Kinsman Redeemer of us all) want people to consign *Him* to never-ending firey torture?
I hardly think so, do you?
And here's something else to ponder...
#####, does Christ expect *YOU* to fulfill the law and the prophets, (treat others as you want to be treated) while He plays the hypocrite and treats most of the human race as He will *never* be treated?
Of course not! What gibbering nonsense that a shallow and self-righteous and hard-hearted "church" would have us to believe... For how can you be more merciful and loving than Him who is Unfailing Holy Love?
But that is exactly the kind of blasphemous nonsense that free-willism and Calvinism espects us to believe about Christ, is it not?
Not that I'm lambasting PEOPLE who have been unwittingly ensnared in those systems. I've been ensnared in both of them myself. It is that old spirit of *antichrist* I'm exposing. He--it!--is the one who authored these profane and hope-destroying perversions of the glad tidings.
Are these systems of free-willism an Calvinism proclaiming Christ as glad tidings of great joy which *shall* be to "all" people?
Not by any stretch of the imagination...
#####, I hope you don't mind my waxing elephant for awhile..:-)
First off--you may be only mishieviously embellishing when you say that God has a place where He will "delight" in tormenting His own offspring for all eternity. Just to keep a lively discussion happening--that sort of thing. No problem, if so! I enjoy a lively debate as well as anyone else.
However, if you mean even half of what you're saying here on this board, my heart aches for you, bro. And I mean that sincerely. For you are promoting a horrifying concept of "God" that any person with even an ounce of altruism or concience *HAS* to reject. (And I believe that includes yourself, sooner or later, by the way.) And why?
To embrace the gospel (good news!?) you're proclaiming---
* One would have to believe that God is 5% ? loving father and savior and 95% ? sadistic and eternally vindictive monster. For doesn't your gospel tell us that only a few EVER WILL find the narrow way and that "Unfailing Love" (??) plans to consign most of the human race to firey torture forever?
* One would have to believe that Christ "tasted death for everyone", but He came offering far too little and far too late. Why? Myriad populations of human beings were ALREADY BEYOND HOPE. They were already burning in endless hell when He came and died for their sins. Furthermore billions more were destined to suffer that fate, because it would be hundreds of years before the message of Christ ever reached their nation. For example, it was the 1300's before anyone in China ever heard of Him--and then, only via the Roman Catholic "gospel."
* One would have to WANT to become "holy" like the "God" you're proclaiming so they also could enjoy watching their friends and loved ones agonise in fire "forever and ever." For don't forget--the saints (holy ones) will judge the world. Only a very sick person would aspire for this kind of "holiness". Don't you agree? So the kind of holiness you're advertising is impossible for a normal human being (created in God's image) to desire.
* One would have to want to live in constant and fearful uncertainty of God's commitment (You call this "the fear of the Lord" perhaps?) while singing His praises and ACTING like one "loves" Him in order to "qualify for heaven." So when you succeed, you must give all the glory to God; when you fail, you must take all the blame to yourself--that kind of abusive and irrational nonsense. Or else, you take all the glory to yourself for your successes while--verbally--*ATTRIBUTING* the glory to Him. Which is not only hypocricy, but insanity. But such is the double-speak of the free-willist gospel.
* One would have to have LOADS of SELF-confidence. For NOT to have it would only increase the possibility of being burned alive forever and ever. For how can I exert my will, if I have no confidence that I can do so? And the doctrine you're preaching requires that we maintain confidence in our power, wisdom, and will for a lifetime. FOR THE FREEWILLIST GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL IS--YOU CAN COUNT ON GOD *IF* HE CAN COUNT ON 'YOU'. Therefore, one *must* have more confidence in self than he has in God under the doctrinal paradigm you're advocating.
*One must be prepared to believe that he or she will be able to perform better than the vast majority of the human race. Therefore, one must be prepared to abandon humility--to say nothing of reality.
* AND FINALLY--AND I PRAY YOU WILL MEDITATE OFTEN ON THIS... To embrace your message, one must be prepared to love the Lord more than the Lord loves him--at all times--and with TOTAL commitment. How so? The greatest commandment of all is that we love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. Right? So you must love HIM--with total commitment--while constantly bearing in mind that His commitment to YOU is CONDITIONAL on your performance. In other words, one must be prepared for an earthly lifetime of trying to give to God a quality of commitment that DOES NOT EXIST--in Him. A lifetime of spiritual abuse. A lifetime of giving more to God that God (supposedly) is able or willing to give to oneself.
Yep. These are the glad tidings you're advocating, Vic. And in the very face of the fact that the Bible DEMONSTRATES that *Unfailing* Holy Love's "forever" judgments are NOT endless. Have you ever read of Sodom's restoration prophesied in Ezekiel 16:53-55? Or of Israel's "forever until" judgment and restoration prophsied in Isaiah 32:13-15? These are only two of many examples God has given to us.
#####, I'll admit, much of your theology drives me up the freaking wall. But that DOES NOT MEAN I don't love and honor you as a brother in Christ, okay?
Tell you what... If YOUR theology is true and you wind up sentenced to a never-ending hell and I wind up in this "heaven" you speak of--I would be miserable. In fact, I wouldn't stay there. I'd say, "so long, SO-CALLED "Unfailing Holy Love"! I'm out of here. I'd rather be with ##### in hell than be crowing and laughing with YOU up here while he suffers without hope forever!"
I mean that.
In fact, if THAT is the kind of God that exists, (and it isn't)--I would consider my being called into existance a CURSE. A curse so horrfying that it defies the power of words to describe it. Far better NOT to exist than to live in such a nightmare of a universe as the one that the free-willist gospel portrays...
And I mean that too. With--every fiber--of my being.
JESUS CHRIST HAS NOT CREATED SUCH A UNIVERSE.
HE IS *FAR BETTER* THAN THAT, MY FRIEND.
AND HE LOVES YOU, #####--FAR MORE--THAN YOU THINK!
Oops! I've gotten into my "preacher voice" now, haven't I? I'm out of here!
Yours prayerfully and with deepest sincerity,
Charlie