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In Reply to: Let's reason together a moment.... posted
by #####
.....a lot of the stuff that goes on around here. You have obviously put some thought into your post and therefore I believe it deserves a thoughtful response.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~First of all, I would like to point out, that I made it plain in the short tract "Do you believe ALL in the Bible," that "all" doesn't mean "absolutely everything possible" in every circumstance. One must look at the context to determine what "all" encompasses.
The list of reconciliation scriptures I selected took the context into consideration. These scriptures plainly speak of the salvation of ALL MANKIND! And Paul, so that devious theologians in the future, could not twist the meaning of his universalism often phrased his words to make it almost impossible for low minded theologians in the future to distort his meaning. In this one passage, Paul uses the word "all" EIGHT TIMES to drive home the point so there can be NO misunderstanding regarding what is encompassed in his "all":
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are
in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the
preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things
in earth, or things in heaven. Col. 1:16-20Of course, devious men will twist this plain scripture into their diabolical scheme of eternal flames even though Paul did everything he could to circumvent their scheming.
"All things" in this passage is "ta panta." Dr. Brooke Foss Westcott, famous for his revision of the KJV writes of this phrase:
"(ta panta) all men: The phrase must not be limited in any way. It cannot mean merely 'Gentiles as well as Jews,' or 'the elect,' or 'all who believe.' We must receive it as it stands."
Secondly, you say only those that the Father gives Him will be saved. True. "The father loves the son and has put ALL THINGS into His hands." Once again, there are MANY scriptures which declare that ALL THINGS MEAN ALL THINGS. "for of Him and to Him and through Him are ALL THINGS," and that includes Human beings. There is not anything made that is not made of Him. He is the Word. All of creation is made of Him.
You say all died in Adam but not all would be made alive. So you contradict the scriptures and say that Adam's transgression exceeded Christ's victory. Adam sold all into slavery because of HIS transgression and poor Jesus, he could only redeem a few...but the scriptures say He became a ransom for ALLLLL. As a matter of fact, they say a lot of plain things which don't seem to line up with your "reasoning.":
God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)
Who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world. (John 6:33)
The Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them. (Luke 9:56)
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. (John 12:32)
As you have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him. (John 17:2)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
(John 3:35)
God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things, through Whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1,2)His purpose is very clear: to reconcile all things back to His Father. (Col. 1:16-20)
According to Scripture, Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, created all things, reconciles all things, is Heir of all things, has authority of all things, will have all men to be saved, His grace comes to all men, He takes away the sin of the world, He gives His flesh for the life of the world, He is the propitiation for the sins of the world, whose gifts are irrevocable of which life is one of the gifts, He manifested to put away sin, He preached to the spirits in prison and holds the keys to death and hell, who changes not, He is Lord of both the living and the dead, he will destroy all enemies of God the last one being death, Who made all things alive, Who completes the work the Father gave Him to do, Who restores all things, gave Himself a ransom for all, He takes away the curse and said He came to do the will and work of the Father who wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so that God, the Father may be all in all! I could lengthen this paragraph considerably, but I think the point has been made.
Jesus said He finished the work and accomplished His purpose which was also the Fathers purpose…to be the Savior of the whole world…to reconcile everyone back to His Father and our Father!
If Jesus doesn't fulfill what the Scriptures say He will do, He can't be the Messiah. If Jesus lose ONE SOUL, He is NOT the "Savior of the world." He is a failure. Sir, reason very carefully what YOU assert with your questions.
So you see, #####, your reasoning falls far short of Jesus' work, will, plan, power, love, etc. Your argument is becoming quite unreasonable and surely unscriptural.
Now we come to your "reasoning" about judgment. I do not believe you understand Biblical judgment at all. You seem to lump it all into one big shot, in or out in one moment of time. There are MANY kinds of God's judgments which go on daily, including in your life. If you think you have missed your judgments with God because you are a Christian, you are sadly mistaken. Some carnal Christians lost their lives so their spirit would be saved in the Day of the Lord. There are "servants of God" who will be beaten with many stripes. Unbelievers are not "servants of God." There are some who will be salted with fire. (everyone) The Bible speaks of rewards. Some Christians will be quite disappointed in how much of their "works" will be counted as NOTHING. They works will be judged and burned up as worthless. THAT is a judgment. If you eat poison, you will probably die. THAT is a judgment. Stupidity has its own reward. For some unknown reason, you seem to think that if "torture in a fiery hell" is taken away, then judgment or punishment or chastisement is gone. Use your reasoning, #####. I can punish, judge, correct my children without holding them over a barbecue spittel for endless ages. I hope you can too. My heavenly Father certainly knows how. You need some education on judgment.
There are two very good books on my web site dealing with all of God's judgments, one by J. Preston Eby "Just what do you mean Judgment?" and one by A.P. Adams "Judgment." Go to http://www.tentmaker.org and look for them under "books" or in the search engine.You put words in my mouth: "It is your desire that none will suffer forever and that requires you to see the wicked reconciled back to Christ." This is a false accusation. I simply don't see "everlasting endless tortures" in the Bible in its original languages and in MANY BIBLES among them: Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham's Emphasized, Concordant Literal, Scarlett's N.T., Emphatic Diaglott, and many, many more Bible translations which do NOT contain your concept of everlasting punishment or Hell.
You write:
: If you say each man must "accept Jesus" before Christ's actions become effective, then you are deep in heresy. If this is your rebuttal then explain HOW DOES SOMEONE'S ACTIONS ON EARTH alter the eternal sacrifice of Christ? Christ was punished IN THEIR STEAD, what affect does someone's "accepting", which is not Biblical to assert in the first place, have on the payment Christ made to the Father. Please reply to this assertion if you hold to this.
No-Heller:
I need you to clarify what you are trying to say here. If I understand you correctly, you must be a Calvinist. Is that where you are coming from here? Please answer so that I can give you an answer a Calvie can understand. The Armies get a different answer. :-)You write:
: Will you say they will suffer in 'hell' for a time and then be released having made the payment THEMSELVES? Then there is another name given amongst men by which they can be saved: FILL IN YOUR NAME HERE. Do you see that ONLY by Christ's atonement can the debt be cancelled out, not by the personal suffering of any single person. This is why Christ had to be sinless, or else HE could NEVER have been a suitable sacrifice, just as the wicked are not a suitable sacrifice. If you hold to this erroneous doctrine please reply to this assertion also.No-Heller:
I will allow a young maiden from the 17th century answer your question. This was how another Calvinist bit the dust and became a great universalist preacher who spread Paul's gospel of no hell all over the colonies.:John Murray who was taught by George Whitfield and John Wesley:
"But as I said, before all this would transpire in my life, the Lord first had to greatly humble me in England. My trust in religious systems had to be broken down and destroyed. The Lord chose to use the mouth of a babe to begin the process. Below is a recount of a conversation I had with a young lady I hoped I would set straight in her doctrines. She had accepted from a Mr. Relly, a preacher who was making quite a stir in London, the pernicious doctrine of Universalism. Prior to this conversation, I had never met the man, yet I despised him for the influence he was having among the citizens. I thought it would be quite a simple matter to set this young deceived babe straight. Little did I know that I was the one who needed straightening out. Once my pride was reduced a little further, I would eventually attend Mr. Relly's meetings personally and find there, (and not at Mr. Wesley’s and Mr. Whitefield’s meetings) the True Gospel delivered once for all mankind. Below is the conversation I had with the young damsel I thought was in distress and whom I hoped I would deliver from the clutches of Mr. Relly.
I went to visit her and after the first ceremonies, we sat for some time silent; at length I drew up a heavy sigh, and uttered a pathetic sentiment, relative to the deplorable condition of those who live and die in unbelief; and I concluded a violent declaration, by pronouncing with great earnestness, He that believeth not shall be damned.“And pray, sir,” said the young lady, with great sweetness, “Pray, sir, what is the unbeliever damned for not believing?"
Why, he is damned for not believing.
“But, my dear sir,” she asked, “what was that, which he did not believe, for which he was damned?”
Why, for not believing in Jesus Christ, to be sure.
“Do you mean to say that unbelievers are damned for not believing there was such a person as Jesus Christ.”
No, I do not; a man may believe there was such a person, and yet be damned.
“What then, sir, must he believe, in order to avoid damnation?”
Why, he must believe that Jesus Christ is a complete Saviour.
“Well, suppose he were to believe, that Jesus Christ was the complete Saviour of others, would this belief save him?”
No, he must believe that Jesus Christ is his complete Saviour; every individual must believe for himself that Jesus Christ is his complete Saviour.
“Why, sir, is Jesus Christ the Saviour of any unbelievers?”
No, madam.
“Why, then, should any unbeliever believe, that Jesus Christ is his Saviour, if he is not his Saviour?”
I say he is not the Saviour of any one, until he believes.
“Then, if Jesus be not the Saviour of the unbeliever, until he believes, the unbeliever is called upon to believe a lie. It appears to me, sir, that Jesus is the complete Saviour of unbelievers; and that unbelievers are called upon to believe the truth; and that, by believing they are saved in their own apprehension, saved from all those dreadful fears which are consequent upon a state of conscious condemnation.”
No, madam; you are dreadfully, I trust not fatally, misled. Jesus never was, never will be, the Saviour of any unbeliever.
“Do you think Jesus is your Saviour, sir?”
I hope he is.
“Were you always a believer sir?”
No, madam.
“Then you were once an unbeliever; that is, you once believed that Jesus Christ was not your Saviour. Now, as you say, he never was, nor ever will be, the Saviour of any unbeliever; as you were once an unbeliever, he never can be your Saviour.”
He never was my Saviour till I believed.
“Did he never die for you, till you believed, sir?”
Here I was extremely embarrassed, and most devoutly wished myself out of her habitation; I sighed bitterly, expressed deep commiseration for those souls who had nothing but head-knowledge; drew out my watch, discovered it was late; and, recollecting an engagement, observed it was time to take leave. (end quote)No-Heller:
"Every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God the Father." And "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." Everyone, sir, will be saved BECAUSE OF THE CROSS, NOT despite it."And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) all mankind (there goes that all again, oh, and in context with mankind :-)) unto Myself. This He said signifying what manner of death He should die." You see, John, it is those who say Jesus will NOT save all mankind who diminish Jesus' work on the cross. Each soul you take away from His work on the cross brings shame to it. Each soul YOU put in hell makes Adam's transgression greater than Jesus' finished work on the cross. (Rom 5:17,18)
Well, it's late, I'm tired, forgive the typos, and Lord, open his eyes. In Jesus mighty Name, I pray, Gary, No-Heller. Amen.