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In Reply to: Re: I told you I would be around...are you
rightly dividing the Word?
posted by #####
: : Tentmaker:
It is the above Scripture, Brad, and many more like it that have completely changed my views on eschatology. MUCH more happened and was in some way fulfilled before 70AD than what is taught in dispensationalism. The Old Covenant and its promises were for Israel and I am certain that the prophesies which related to Israel have been in some way fulfilled. When Jesus entered the actual Most Holy place and cleansed it with His blood, things happened that church writers have not written about. No one talks about the Holy men who came out of their graves and walked into Jerusalem. What was that all about? The Old Heavens and earth HAVE vanished away. We are living in the New ones for sure.
: Dear Tentmaker,: I have a couple questions about the above statement.
: First of all, you seemed confused as to what dispensationalism is. Or maybe I am just not understanding you. Dispensationalism transfers all the blessings given to Israel from G-d, to the church while leaving the curses with 'Israel'.
: Dispensationalism says G-d is finished with Israel and that 'in THIS dispensation ie the church' the responsiblity of the things of G-d are now given not to Israel but to the church, leaving Israel out because it seemed to them that Israel was no more. With the reestablishment of Israel and the beginnings of the regathering beginning in 1948 many have had to rethink this view.
: My 1st question is: Do you believe G-d is finished with the nation Israel?
: Second, you are saying that the Resurrection has already happened, are you not? That the New Heaven and the New Earth are here already? There is clear evidence that the disciples of Christ did not believe this:
: 2 Tim 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
: 16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
: 17: And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
: 18: Who concerning the truth have erred,*** saying that the resurrection is past already***; and overthrow the faith of some.: How do you, Tentmaker, answer the writer of 2 Timothy in this regard?
: Iris
Tentmaker:
And I'll respond to the hard question at another time for reasons I'll withhold because I don't want to get into a fight with you.Dispensationalism comes in MANY forms. Your strong pro-physical Isael version is just one of many AND probably a small minority one. I'm sure most dispensationalists who I know would RADICALLY disagree with you on your stance towards the Mosaic Law AND Israel.
Do I believe God is finished with Israel? God is not finished with ANY nation, so in the full sense of your question is NO, God is NOT finished with Israel. However, God IS finished with Israel as far as the Mosaic Covenant is concerned. Israel is no longer on the the Mosaic Covenant. It is finished! And because they pretend to follow it, but do NOT, they are under a curse. Look at Jewish history and that will be made plain. It is OUR responsibility to love them into the New Covenant. Christians have been given mercy so that they can learn to give mercy, the Jews being a nation needing this mercy more than many other nations. The Mosaic Law has blinded the Jews more than other faiths have been blinded because the Mosaic Covenant WAS at one time a real Covenant whereas other religions were NOT from God; they were false. So if Christians give extra attention to those who think they are Jews living under a real covenant with God, it should be because they need extra grace because of the blindness the Mosaic Covenant brings them. Jews today are among the most idolatrous people on earth and yet the Mosaic Covenant forbids this idolatry? How can that be. Because the Mosaic Covenant today only has the power to turn people into big hypocrites. Show me zealots of the Mosaic Covenant, Jew or Christian, and I'll show you a big hypocrite. The Mosaic Covenant CAN'T give life, it is the "ministry of condemnation, the ministry of DEATH." (2 Cor. 3:8)
So then, God makes the nations, and God has permitted a new nation to come forth in the Middle East, a nation of Israeli's, NOT Israelites. Surely He has purpose there. And surely modern Jews will come into the New Covenant, just like other nationalities. My wife got saved before I did and she was raised Jewish. We lived in the Baltimore Washing DC area and attended MANY Messianic Jewish churches filled with a lot of people who were raise Jewish who now follow the Messiah Yeshua.Resurrection: No, I'm not saying "the" resurrection occurred. But tell me, the Holy men who came out of their graves and walked into Jerusalem, were they resurrected? Do you know for CERTAIN what this event signifies? Or will you just offer an opinion? For now, let's leave the resurrection question on the shelf, there are some easier areas where we might be able to "reason together," the resurrection is NOT one of them.
You connect the "New Heavens and Earth" with the resurrection. When the Old Testament was ratified, the prophets treated this ratification as an establishment of "heavens and earth." Was there a resurrection when this covenant was ratified? No. So why do you connect "resurrection" with the establishment of a New Covenant, that is, a New Heaven and a New earth?
You HAVE to see how this express "heaven and earth" is used in the Hebrew sense of the word. The heavens of the Jews speak, rejoice and do a lot of other human things. Why? Because these "heavens" ARE human beings. These human beings are also "trees" that "clap their hands." Right?And finally we come to Hymenaeus and Philetus.
This article says it better than I can. Now keep in mind this writer and I differ on MANY things. He is a full preterist. I am NOT by any stretch of the imagination. But I can learn from many different people about things in the Bible. I try NOT to put on by denominational blinders when reading other people's material. That let's me see their stuff with better eyes and it has increased my learning greatly. So I ask you please NOT to stick me in this guy's camp just because I quoted him. Thank you.What About Hymenaeus and Philetus
"Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." 2 Tim 2:17,18
Question:
Can someone give me a thoroughly reformed, scriptural meaning of what Hymenaeus and Philetus said about the resurrection? Wouldn't the Ephesians know of a spiritual resurrection? Doesn't it imply a physical resurrection? I am a partial preterist, but many new things that I have learned are drawing me towards the full preterist. This is about the only road block I can think of to believing the full preterist view. It would answer my questions about the resurrection. Also, any thoughts on what the millenium in the full preterist view was? I believe it is now, but I would like fully reformed, scriptural thoughts on this.
Answer:
Believe me, I shared your sentiments. My main concern was not losing friends or popularity. My main concern was not even that the "orthodox" church has not believed in full preterism. My main concern was 2 Tim 2:17,18. Because if I am a full preterist and the resurrection has not happened, then I am a heretic and should be delivered unto Satan and excommunicated from Christian fellowship. That is really hard to take especially considering the fact that the doctrines of grace have already brought enough alienation. So please know that I struggled (and sometimes still do) with that.
However, as those who deny the church of Rome and her impositions upon her adherents concerning the interpretation of Scripture, we as believers in sola Scriptura must test the "church" and use the conscience God has given us. Of course I know guys like Jim Jones and David Koresh claimed to do that too. But does that mean we flock to Rome? Of course I know you do not believe that, since you are a believer in the reformed doctrines of grace.
So then, the question is, here we are-two believers in sovereign grace desiring earnestly to search the Scriptures, and our conscience tells us that the apostles and Christ were not mistaken. Our conscience sees the earnest expectation of Paul. Our conscience sees that Paul promised the church of Corinth under divine inspiration, "We shall not all sleep."
Our conscience tells us to question: How would the church of Corinth have taken that statement? Or the church of Thessalonica for that matter. How did the seven churches in Asia interpret shortly, quickly, at hand, etc.?
At this point my conscience also says, So why were Hymenaeus and Philetus excommunicated? Before I ask that, I have to ask myself the question: Had the resurrection happened yet? No, of course not. Second, I had to ask, why did not Paul correct the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1-3 by saying "Look you guys, if the coming of Christ took place and the resurrection happened (according to the orthodox views of the 20th century), there would be bodies flying out of the graves etc. I know you have thought about this. But how could Hymenaeus and Philetus be so stupid to say the resurrection had passed if everyone's conception of resurrection was bodies flying out of graves? Seriously. Then I had to ask the question, what was the real reason they were "overthrowing the faith of some"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that the resurrection was inseparable from the destruction of the Jewish Temple.
Christ clearly said that that generation would not pass away until every stone was thrown down and all prophecy was fulfilled:
Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. {21} Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. {22} For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which is about to be revealed in us.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.So what Hymenaeus and Phil were doing was negating the words of Christ and nullifying other VERY important prophecies that had to take place before that day would come (2 Thess 2:1-12). Also interesting is the fact that in 2 Thess 2, the KJV at hand is wrong. It is not the word AT HAND but literally means "has come." There were rumors that Christ had come. So now we have in two places (if their interpretation of the coming and resurrection was twentieth century orthodoxy) that crazy lunatics were trying to say the resurrection and coming had taken place. Well, quite honestly, I think these guys were smart enough to realize that no one would buy that tale unless they were seeing the physical body of Christ and graves popping open. But Russ, I believe they were taught and entirely different view of the kingdom/resurrection:
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.Christ knew exactly what the Pharisees were asking. They were asking exactly the same thing the apostles asked in Acts 1:
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?Everyone was asking the same question that people are still asking today: When is the kingdom going to come?
Well, check out this comparison:
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek mone=dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.compare with:
John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and NOT unto the world?
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (Greek-mone=mansion or dwelling place) with him.First, Judas knew that Christ said the kingdom would not be obvious but that His people would know it. So naturally he asks Jesus: How will you do this? Christ response is crucial. He was telling Judas that those in whom He would come to dwell were the mansions in the Father's house. Through the Spirit, the deposit of their Inheritance (Christ) the first century church was being built up this spiritual house:
1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are being built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable
to God by Jesus Christ.This building up of the house was the "preparing a place for them" of John 14:2-3. The place was the house or Temple of God that was being built. That house consisted of many dwelling places. At the parousia, Christ came to indwell that house. They then became one with their Husband and dwelt in Him and He in them:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
I always used to be confused about this verse:
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
I thought that the NC church was the Temple:
2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
But then Revelation says:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Well Christ's words unify it. His bride is in Him (in Christ) and He is IN His bride. We now KNOW Him as they were, and we are, fully known.
I hope this helps.
In heaven,
Ward
--
Ward FenleyTentmaker:
Oh, Iris, I'm glad you're back. I see you as a real warrior. Peace, Gary