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Posted by Charlie
In Reply to: Judge or Savior posted by #####
: #####
: I read much of what is on your site. I enjoyed the testimony. What you described sounds much like the God I know. In parts of your testimony you describe the intense fear and even hate you had towards God from your Pentecostal upbringing. And since you've had that experience you should understand what I'm about to say easily.: Everyone sees God. No exceptions. We either see Him as Judge or Savior.
: If we see Him as Judge (as you did before the heavenly dog), you will come to despise and fear Him. I would say most athiests refuse to beleive in God because they would rather believe in "no god", then a god who will judge them. And yet the Bible clearly states (as your father drilled into you) that we will all stand before God in judgement of one sort or another.
: If you see Him just as judge, how would you expect people to respond. You yourself know you can never be "good enough". So automatically you are condemned.
: But then many have some sort of awakening, similar to what you did. A place where we have exhausted our own way. A place where we have come to the end of our rope. A place where we need a savior. In your testimony you describe yourself at such a place. And in my own salvation experience I too came to a similar place. And God also revealed Himself to me in a marvelous way. That is why I responded to you as I did, I hear the echo's of your salvation in your voice. You understand what it means to have your faith switched on. To be raised from the dead. To be born again. You have an experience where God suddenly came alive to you. You saw Him as savior, not in your mind, but in your heart! You needed a savior desperately and God answered you in a wonderful way.
: As for universal salvation or salvation of the elect, those concepts mean nothing to me. They are just that, concepts. Man's idea of trying to make God into their image. Yes the scripture talks about the elect, but I'm very convinced that most don't have a clue as to what that really means, and I refuse to waste time trying to convince anyone who is not willing to hear. Were you willing to hear Jesus is your savior before it happened to you? No, all you could get in your mind was that you were doomed to hell because you had this terible burden of sin.
: As for exactly what happens to those who do not come to see Jesus as savior in this life, I can only speculate, so I refuse to say much upon that. To be honest, I find such conversation a serious waste of time. Consequently I find it much more important to talk about faith and grace. something that a lot of people I see on this board seem to have much confusion about. I think mainly beacuse they are more worried about what will happen to everyone else and are not paying any attention to what the Lord wants to teach them.
: As savior God wants to help us unravel our messed up thinking. But as you'll notice throughout the gosples he only takes a man as far as he's ready to go. And as is your own experience, He only reveals Himself at the right time. Yet He does talk to us, the real question is...Where is our faith, are we listening to the voice of the one who loves us?
: Or are we spending all our time creating religion, generating theology, and trying to convince everyone else our view is the right one.
: We are called to witness, to give testimony. Some of us are called to do more, and yet it is all in the same vein. And all of us are told one thing by Jesus, believe Him, follow Him, be made his disciple. Tonight the Lord has convinced me that too many are too busy trying to make disciples, they haven't figured out that's not their job.
: that too comes back to the notion of judge or savior. I think some of us think we get a better place by how many souls we win, or if we preach the correct gosple, or how much work we do at the church, how we tithed, or....
: No, God judges the attitude of the heart. It's the heart that is perfect towards Him that has the better place already. It's the heart that never forgets, Jesus is savior and Lord. It's the heart that knows God will tax every resource in the universe if it will move your heart closer to Him.
: Will everyone's heart become like this? Does God do something to move those who's hearts are inclined away from Him? Do they respond?
: Jesus stood on the hill overlooking Jerusalem and cried out, "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, if only you would recognize what would bring you salvation". And Jesus weep sorely.
: God wasn't kidding when He told you how He grieved over your stubborn misunderstanding. That's why He licked your face and played hide and seek, romped with you. You finally came to the point where you would stop hiding your faith.
: Heb 11:6 -- without faith it is impossible to please God, for first we have to believe He exists and that He reqwards those who diligently seek him.
: In Christ,
: #####-------------
Hi #####,
What a liberating revelation it was for me when God's Spirit caused me to realize that our Good Father is not a schizoid combination of:
"Stern Unmerciful Judge/Tenderhearted Reliable Savior."
But would you believe that that's the double-image concept that was transmitted to me in my childhood when I grew up in the Assembly of God?
Your good spirit comes through in your post, #####, and it blesses me. Apparantly you haven't been subjected to near-nonstop hell-fire preaching as I was. However, here's something to think prayerfully about...
If there IS an endless hell in which most of the human race will spend "forever"--then those that many Christians call "legalists" who preach constantly on hell are far more honest in their way of preaching the gospel. For how could all of these so-called "grace-oriented" churches be so heartless and deceptive as to preach on stuff like--
* Knowing Who you are In Christ
* Unconditional Love
* The Importance of Identity
* Healing of Body and Soul--the Whole Man
*God's Grace is Greater than All our Sin
*Entering Into God's Rest
*Discovering Your Spiritual Gifts
* How to Hear God's Still, Small Voice
???
You name it!
What?? These "grace-oriented" Charismatics, Pentecostals and Evangelicals are preaching *ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING* --except--the most important issue that faces the human race:
AN AGONISING, ENDLESS, FIREY HELL--FROM WHICH THERE IS *NO HOPE* OF REPRIEVE. NOT EVER.
Do you catch the drift of what I'm saying?
If that is actually true, then one cannot be too careful! A god that has foreordained such a place for his (beloved?) creatures is *not* the kind of being we can rely on to show much "mercy" and "grace." So that is what makes it vital to learn whether or not God plans to eventually redeem ALL humanity. It is the--character--of our Heavenly Father that is at stake here.
If He actually plans to consign most of humanity (many Christian backsliders included) to endless fiery agony, then there are only two options for those who *SERIOUSLY* believe that:
(1) Legalism with all of it's unceasing frenzy and pride and self-scrutiny and paranoia.
(2) Forget God and live it up! "Because imperfect as I am, why try?", so a thinking person would reason. The worst thing that could happen would be to try to deny the flesh for decades only to die suddenly in some hideous sin only to spend eternity in hell.
So Rocky, I hope you're tracking with me here. It isn't a matter of just enjoying a casual debate over "doctrine" to prove others "wrong" so one can take pride in one's intellect or win "disciples" or followers of one's self. I'm sure there must be some people who have that silly motivation, but what is really at stake here is--
THE CHARACTER OF GOD WHO IS CALLED "UNFAILING HOLY LOVE."
Is God 95% eternal torturer and 5% loving savior? Or is he 50% eternal torturer and 50% loving savior?
Or is He 100% loving savior that judges us in order to redeem us?
The whole gospel of "the restoration of all things" reveals Him as the latter. So that's what all of the discussion is all about. I was 6 years old when first invited Jesus into my heart. But because in the following years I was subjected to so much hell-fire teaching and preaching ("Holiness or Hell!")--I had NO WAY OF KNOWING who I was in Christ.
I had no identity.
For all I knew, seeing all of my imperfections and skuzz, I was destined to be a son of everlasting darkness, pain and evil.
So it was the revelation that Christ would literally draw *all men* to Himself that established me in my identity as a child of God. And it was out of that strong sense of identity that my healing came. AND--it was out of that revelation that I acquired a true desire to be conformed to our Lord's "holy" likness.
When I thought that God's "holiness" was a quality altogether different from His love; when I thought God had sent some of my deceased friends and loved ones to hell forever because "He is not just love, He is also *HOLY*"--I abhored the very thought of becoming "holy" like such a cruel diety as that.
Sheesh!
Can you catch a glimpse now of the dilema I was caught in? I wanted to be saved, yet I didn't. I wanted to be pure, but I did *NOT* want to be "holy." My God-given conscience just could not desire that kind of holiness--and rightfully so!
But as you can imagine, before the Lord showed me that "Judge" and "Savior" were RELATED terms, and not opposite ones; and before He showed me that His "holiness" and "love" were RELATED qualities, and not opposite ones---
I was a mega-mess!
Anyhow, you already know how the Lord turned all of that around, so no need to bore you by repeating it. God bless you, bro. Keep up the good work, letting the Lord's good light shine through you!
Yours in His Unfailing and Committed Love,
Charlie