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In Reply to: Where is God limited? posted by #####
#####
: No matter how you look at it, in order to explain the fact that there is evil in the world God has to be limited.
: Hope that got your attention!: Universalist and Calvinists both place that limit in the creation plan. In fact you will often hear them say, "Satan was created so God could use him to teach man about evil". They may even be bold enough (or foolish enough, I'm not sure which) to state that "it's the only way God could teach man about evil".
: Hello! This is placing a limit on God! You don't think God could teach us another way? We've certainly learned about death by witnessing it, not experiencing it! Anybody here learn about death that way?
: I would answer the Universalist/Calvinist thining in two ways. The lamb slain from the foundation was not slain before the fall, but rather slain at the fall . How do I know that? First the word translated foundation is very different than the word translated creation. In fact this word translated foundation means "the casting down of". We also see at the fall that God covers Adam and Eve with the skin of an animal. It's pretty easy to conclude an animal had to be slain and that it was a lamb! Coincidence?
: If that's not enough for you you'll really like my second answer.
: God is limited! Yet He is omni-whater. Contradiction? No, not when you consider that God is "self-limiting"! We see this throughout the scriptures, places where God even states He restrains Himself!
: God limits his intrusion into our free-will. He'll go all the way to the borderline. He'll try to convinct you and convince you, he'l knock at the door, he'll whisper your name. But ultimately it's up to you to choose.
: In fact, if you want to see how much God limits Himself this way just ask one question.
: Why didn't Jesus hold a parade after the resurrection?
: Jesus only reveals Himself to the disciples, or to those who are ready to believe (like Paul, recall he'd just heard Stephen's great sermon and watched the stoning, no doubt it made Paul wonder and Paul was ready to believe).
: No matter which way you cut it, for evil to hang arround, God must be limited. I think it's better theology to accept the free-will notion then it is to assume God had to or elected to teach it to us this way.
: So the real question here isn't universal/calvinist vs traditional salvaion. It's where you place the limits on God.
: I can tell you in my own life which one He has demonstrated. He has never ever made me do or not do anything I didn't want to do or not do (although looking back there are times I wished He had). He certainly didn't make me get saved, that happened when I decided to believe Him.
: So where do you see the limit?
: #####
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Hi #####,
Just because God never gives up on us does not mean that He has directly authored evil or violates the wills of His creatures.
For example--
If I were a rich and powerful politician and loved you as a cherished son and friend and I told you that NO MATTER how many messes you got in that I would always love you and see to it that you got healed somehow (morally, emotionally and financially) and off to a fresh start--would that be a violation of your free will?
More importantly--
Do you not want your Heavenly Father to love you that much?
Of course, wills that are "dead in tresspasses and sins" are not yet "free" in the way God perceives freedom, are they! I mean the reason I love Him today and serve Him joyfully is because--His unrelenting love--has FREED my willto love and serve Him.For example--
On April 30, 1996 when I went to bed sobbing my guts out, telling God how much I HATED him for calling me into being and giving me *NO CHOICE* in the matter, and cursing the day I had been born--what did He do? He SOVEREIGNLY filled my heart with the revelation of His committed love (Jn.12:32, Eph.1:9-11) that night--ANYWAY. I was not repenting or believing. I was cursing and accusing! Like Paul on the Road to Damascus (who was "breathing out murderous threatenings") I WAS DOING ALL THE WRONG THINGS.
Even so, while I was asleep after my long tantrum, God flooded my heart with His Presence and the revelation of His *committed* love. Praise the Lord!
But what does the gospel of free-willism say?
Free-willism says that if I had had a heart attack that night while I was blaspheming and railing at God, He would have abandoned me to hell forever and ever. Would it not? And all because, in my deep sorrow, confusion and pain--*I*--"chose" to blaspheme and disbelieve. Yet that is not what happened. God did not abandon this ole blasphemer. Like Paul, the "chiefest of sinners", mercy was shown to me BECAUSE of my ignorance and unbelief. Not because of my wisdom to make the "correct choice" to "repent" and "believe"--but God lavished His mercy on me BECAUSE of my *confusion and unbelief*. (I Tim.1:12-16)
Paul says that he is a "pattern" of those who will later believe. Thus he tells us that "all Israel will be saved."
(Compare Romans 11:26-29 with Ezk.37) Like the ole song says, "Them bones, them bones, gonna rise again, now hear the word of the Lord!"I can put you in touch with Christians who believe in the restoration of all things that believe in "free will"--at least as free as a sin and death-impaired will can be called "free." George Mac Donald, a minister and writer from the 1800's, whom C. S. Lewis regarded as His spiritual father and mentor, is one of these. (I lean in this direction, too, by the way.) Origen and Clement of Alexandria were of this school.
If you'll go into search and type in "Prophetic Telegraph" (without the quotation marks) that will put you on the web page of Arthur Eedle in Mumby, England. (Try typing in Arthur Eedle if Prophetic Telegraph doesn't work.) He is also of this persuasion--and a fantastic writer. He has a novel out called "King's Fountain" about the second coming of Christ that is as good as anything C.S. Lewis would write.
Free-willism nearly killed me, bro. Free-willism requires that we love God more (with stronger committent) than He loves us.
How?
Well the greatest commandment is that we love Him with all of our heart, soul, *mind* and strength. That means--TOTAL COMMITTMENT--right? And yet free-willism requires that we love God with total committment--with all of our *MIND*--while also seriously believing that His commitment to our eternal welfare is conditional on *OUR* performance.
#####, how can we sin-weakened and finite beings render to God a quality of commitment that He does not possess? And how can we love Him with all of our *mind* while think He demands more from us than He is willing to give? So as you can see, the common free-willism doctrine (that includes the idea of eternal hell fire)--*DESTROYS*--authentic love for God.
I mean--when it is *seriously* meditated on and believed on a daily basis, it does.
Experience talking here.
Are you tracking with me?
I have a post here much further down on this board about Free-willism's doctrine of "once saved hardly saved" that elaborates more on the central problem if you're interested in reading it.
If I thought there was the *slightest* chance that God would abandon you or me or anyone else to an ENDLESS hell, I bail out of Christianity--immediatly. What would be the use of trying to serve Him, if I found it impossible to really love Him or trust Him? And most importantly, how could I possibly even begin to love him with all of my mind while also believing that He loved you or me with only conditional commitment?
See the problem? Something--HAS--to be missing in the equation of any theology that requires that we give more to God than he can or will give to us...
I pray the Holy Spirit will (blessedly) "haunt you" real good--day and night--with that thought.
The Lord loves you--far more--than you think, bro!
Always your friend,
Charlie