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Newer Posts - Spirit of the Word - Covenant Eschatology - Introductory Note - New Stuff Posted by Laird Roman Catholic's & Protestant's
re: universalismThe following quotes are selections from several boards and various authors:
Hi #####,
I recall reading in a book quoting a Roman Catholic
who said the RCC has never denied the possibility
of a final reconciliation of all beings to God.
I'll have to find that book.You quoted:
"Although Christian tradition teaches that there is eternal damnation, it does not teach that any specific person suffers that condition. Through canonization the Church assures us that there are people in heaven, but it never assures us that any specific person, even a great sinner, is in hell. Pope John Paul II raised this possibility in his book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope". Indeed, it is conceivable that God, in his infinite mercy, takes everyone back to himself in the end. We can hope and pray for a "tenantless" hell at the end of time."In light of that, I suppose the Roman Catholic could believe
that all except 'saints' would end up in purgatory and finally
be purified and enter heaven. The quote mentions to "pray"
toward this goal, which brings to mind 1Tim.2:1 that speaks
of praying "for all mankind". Verse 4 says God "wills all
mankind be saved" and Eph.1:9-11 says He operates "all in accord
with the counsel of His will" [v.11]. 1Tim.2 also says, in verse
6, that Christ is the "Ransom for all {the testimony in its own
eras}".Your quote also speaks of this as something to "hope" for besides
"pray" for. This is what some have termed "the larger hope".
There are certainly Roman Catholics who feel that way. I don't
know if you saw this post from yesterday:Gary Amirault of the Tentmaker website says:
"There are two brothers and a sister named Linn who have published several books under the Paulist (Catholic) label. They clearly teach the salvation of all mankind."
http://www.tentmaker.orgI heard recently from Tony N. that a Catholic priest
in his area was teaching universal salvation to a parish.The article at: http://catholictrojan.org/faithhell.htm
from the U.S. Catholic published by Claretian Publications
& authored by a Rev. Robert Short states:"Only if the teaching of hell were true would the churches be justified in retaining it. And a growing number of theologians--both Catholic and Protestant--are now saying it is not true."
and
"(The Eastern Orthodox churches have never considered this question closed and have always maintained a strong tradition of Christian universalism)."
Rev. Robert Short, btw, is a Presbyterian minister and the cartoonist who did Peanuts and Charlie Brown.
I read an article posted by a RCatholic priest on this board stating:
"Catholics are not universalists, although many Catholics ignorant of the actual Council documents tend to believe that this is the Church's new position."
Another interesting statement I read recently said:
"4. Vatican II was a Pastoral Council controlled by Modernists, whom, no doubt, the Holy Ghost prevented from speaking infallibly. Therefore, any of its teachings, if they conflict with Tradition, prior Councils or Papal encyclicals, are to be disregarded, as Pope John Paul II advises.""The German theologian, Karl Rahner, S.J., was described as having been the most influential peritus at the Council. Father Rahner was also an arch-Modernist. Subsequent to the Council he showed his true colors by openly advocating "Universal Salvation" everyone goes to Heaven! a heresy imputed to Origen." [from http://www.catholicism.org/pages/crusdr19.htm ]
Some of the most popular authors of books sold at Christian bookstores also believe, such as George MacDonald {C.S. Lewis' mentor/"spiritual father"}, Hannah W. Smith {book distributed at Billy Graham crusade, with universalist chapters removed}. [Note: these three are not Roman Catholics]. I have also heard that Max Lucado may be of universalist
persuasion.In Christ,
Laird====================================
Posted by #####
As you know, my dear friend went home to the Lord. Well, she is being buried out of the country so my family and I could only attend the memorial service. My parents, Mark (hubby), and my older sister (who was out of the country), all flew into Chicago to be my support during this time. Anyway, Karen was a very devout Christian and had quite a funny personality. Never took crap from anyone, but always put people in their place gently. Since I had moved to Florida, she had changed churches. We talked about it, but only "generically". She loved the pastor and sent me typed sermons which were wonderful and very uplifting. During the memorial service a bunch of us were asked to say a few words. I'm not very good at speaking while sobbing hysterically, but I did my best. After we were done speaking, the pastor got up and introduced himself to everyone. He introduced himself by saying "Good Morning, and for those of you who have never met me, I am Pastor Larry." I was a bit out of it and I swear I thought he said Pastor Laird. I perked up a bit and when he spoke I was positive it was you! I had NO clue he had the same beliefs as you regarding "eternal damnation". He conducted a very uplifting, although very touching, service. My entire family thought I was nuts. I just kept laughing! I'm not joking when I say if I didn't know better I would of thought it was you. You, my friend, in a very strange way, got me through a very difficult day and for that I thank you. I still have trouble with your beliefs, but I'm having trouble with any organized religion right now! God Bless you Laird.
Susan====================================
I've been to alot of Catholic churches around the United States and they all have different flavors to them
Some Catholic churches have radical priests who can outpreach Billy Graham
and some put you to sleep.Some teach that God will save all mankind and some don't.
Some are more folksy with guitars and some are stuffed shirt types.
The important thing to remember is that God is saving people through what Christ did for us. Amen?
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My dad was raised Presbyterian. I told him exactly how I believe, how
that God is going to save all mankind "eventually". He told me that that
was how he was taught in the Prespyterian church when he was a kid.It is a fact that 90% of all Presbyterian church ministers are closet universalists.
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I was in a church yesterday full of people in the Spirit of the Lord, People who have been cursed all their lives for their thinking and understanding of Scripture....I was amazed at how hell was no longer a part of their Loving God in their lives either. (Most came out of churches that taught that....amazing what the Holy Spirit is doing in this day) There was joy and peace and fellowship among them that I have never seen even on these boards let alone in my own RCC up-bringing.
The pastor spoke of reconciliation, of love in Christ that God was indeed Love and not anger and that His sacrifice was "ONCE FOR ALL!" 1Tim. 2"15 is another good Scripture your should search out. I have also been invited back to Bible study night to share in a program they are working on in bring the "TRUTH" to our young people...that Jesus loves them because far too many have been pushed away from the churches, through what other preaching? than a god of hell and damnation thus no hope! Plus as Charlie and Jeff are doing these people are involved also in a Christian radio program...first one in this area....I shall surely be interested in that myself God willing.....also this pastor and congregation were in full agreement with the Savior of all...yet hardly call themselves "universalist" but profound Spirit filled people!
ps. The little church is Pentecostal...just amazing never in my dreams....
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Posted by ####
A friend of mine just sent me e-mail. She informed me that there is a book called "Good Goats" published by Paulist Press(?). It is written by a Jesuit Priest who believes in universal salvation. Anybody ever hear of it? She finds it fascinating, but she said it will only upset me and any Catholics or Protestants.
God Bless,
#####================================
Hi Richard, I think I understand. Universalists are a diverse lot, spread through many denominiations. I know Catholic universalists, Baptist universalists, charismatic universalists, etc. Personally, I am very Calvanistic in my thoughts on salvation, but that is an area of debate among many believers, and is not restricted to universalist debates. There are a variety of teachings and articles at my site, and not all deal with unversalism. I am willing to openly debate and discuss any article I have penned. I look forward to more discussions here, God bless.
MarkCM Ministries
http://members.home.net/cm-ministries/recsec.html=============================================
Another interesting thing about the Baptists is that the Anabaptists were universalists.
President Jimmy Carter's sister who was a Sunday School teacher at a Baptist church taught that God would save all mankind.
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Hello Mark This is part 3 its shorter and even has a funny at the end. Anabaptist(1600-1800) had 15 major Anabaptist (rebaptize) organizations in which 4 of them were Oneness (H.Kamen, The Rise of Toleration, p.171; G.H Williams, The Radical Reformation, p.675,677; H.A.DeWind, Anabaptist in Thessalonica, MOR 29,l9S5,p.72). Protestant reformers Luther (Lutheran), Zwingli (Presbyterian), and Calvin (Protestant leader) murdered the Anabaptists. 'The Catholics burned the Anabaptist's, and their manuscripts,(history books) the (High) Protestants drowned them. At the Diet of Dpeyer, in 1529, Catholics and Lutherans subjected them to the death penalty.'(Ronald Bainton; Reformation, p.279,298, OBU, 270.6 Bl6a, Bl62c). They put the Anabaptist to death for baptizing outside of Trinity (L.Verduin, p. 166, 185, 202, 217 , 27 1)
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P.S. #2 Bruce if you follow your Quaker belief to its end you will have to accept "universal" salvation just like John Woolman a famous Quaker did, include William Penn, he was also a Quaker universalist.
Most Quakers that I have met believe in universal salvation because they believe that the Light within is stronger than the world, the flesh and the devil and cannot be defeated.
Most Quakers, the originators of your indwelling light doctrine believe in universal salvation because that is what 'your doctrine' leads to.
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"I was pleased to hear again from Robert Short,
whose books such as THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
PEANUTS and SHORT MEDITATIONS ON THE BIBLE
AND PEANUTS lay an excellent foundation for the
truth of universal salvation by presenting the
gospel as it truly is, God's gracious achievement
in Christ. He is currently pastor at the First
Presbyterian Church, PO Box 248, Monticello AR
71655. He has prepared a flyer concerning his
lecture programs "Robert Short's Visual Programs
in Christianity Without Doom or Gloom" which can
be requested from the Monticello address".from the Saviour of All Fellowship newsletter,
January, 19986800 Hough Road, Almont, MI 48003, U.S.A.
{810} 798-8131=========================================
"Have you ever read any of Brennen Manning's books? Like 'The Ragamuffin Gospel', for example? He's a charismatic Roman Catholic priest, now married, and is almost certainly a universal reconciliation man. You can tell by things he says, though his books are inspirational in character more than theological.
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After that date, these matters became the items of optional belief in that Church. In 1864, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council of Great Britain, sitting in judgment upon a case of ecclesiastical discipline within the Church, ruled, with the consent of the then Archbishops of Canterbury and York, that nothing in the Confession of Faith (the 'Thirty-Nine' Articles) precluded a clergyman from holding or preaching the possibility of repentance and pardon after death. Which opens the Anglican door to what is know as 'universal salvation.'
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I have met many evangelicals in my door to door ministry who believe that Hell is 'separation' from God, and that there is not a literal hell fire.
I have also heard that the Anglican Church in England has come out against Hellfire torture by God of people for ever.
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By the way, I have read somewhere on the net recently that a good number of Roman Catholic priests openly declare for the full gospel of UR. Are you familiar with that article?
Anyhow, if I remember rightly, that article was by today's famous Calvinist, J.I. Packer---but I'm not for sure...
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I have read 'The Ragamuffin Gospel' by a Charismatic Catholic priest, Brennin Manning, and in passing, he defends 'universalism' in a couple of short sentences. And in the opening pages of his book, 'The Signature of Jesus' he speaks of God's 'commitment to His universe.' Interesting, huh? All I've read thus far of Manning is congrueous with what a believer in full reconciliation would teach.
It would be interesting to know if Rome allows for this kind of diversity among it's clergy... Or perhaps has always allowed 'universalists' among themselves during different seasons throughout history...
A few years back I stayed for a few days among some Catholic monastics devoted to 'Contemplative Prayer', and in retrospect, they sure sounded like they leaned toward UR. I liked the fact that the priest who interviewed me was such a down-to-earth guy. He actually wore jeans and a cowboy hat. Looked exactly like a 60 yr. old version of the Marlboro man---neat brother!
Wonder if Origin's influence has lingered over the monastic wing of the RCC more than we know?
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I was raised Roman Catholic. I am 45 years old (don't tell anyone :o) I went to a RC grade school and a RC high school during the 60's and early 70's. The RCC takes (or took) part in the academics of the schools. During the years of grade and high school, believe me, Universalism was not taught in the church or in the schools. In fact, totally the opposite. For their belief at that time was only Roman Catholics had any chance for salvation. The rest of the world or denominations were going to hell in a hand basket.
Then I returned to finish my educaton at a RC college in 1994. I received a BA in psychology/sociology, criminal justice and theology/religious studies. To my surprise, the teachings in all the theology or religous courses were totally based on Universalism!! They had gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. First no one but RC's were saved, now everyone will be. It was very confusing for me to say the least. Especially when I had been indoctrinated during the years of my youth that only RC's could attain salvation. Let me also say that it was only confusing in the fact of their teachings, not my beliefs. I left the RCC during my late 20's and began on my search for the truth, knowing that the RCC did not have the truth as they so taught.
I know for a fact that on the academic levels of RC education, Universalism is the basis for their teachings. At least here in the Northern Ky/Greater Cincinnati area. I have not set foot in a RCC for many years, so as to their teachings on a church level, I am not sure.
Among the women/nuns of the RCC, Universalism is widely accepted and taught.I am not so sure that Rome 'allows' for this kind of diversity. I should also say that the courses (theology) that I took at this RC college were taught by nuns, lay persons (men and women), and a priest or two and Universalism was there in all classes. Of course, some tried to hide it but it came out in all the classes.
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The Ankerberg Theological Research Institute, of so-called 'orthodox'
belief, said on their website:"...opinion polls reveal that 70% of all clergy deny the doctrine of hell. Some highly respected evangelical scholars and educated laymen have also rejected the doctrine of hell. They teach that conditional immortality, annihilationism or Universalism are legitimate options for Christian belief..."
"When a conditionalist text such as The Fire That Consumes is chosen as an alternate selection by the Evangelical Book Club and when, as some have claimed, "Over 50% of young evangelicals believe" in Universalism and reject the doctrine of hell, we have to wonder."
"Dr. J.I. Packer has noted that Universalism "has in this century quietly become part of the orthodoxy of many Christian thinkers and groups." D. B. Eller asserts in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology that it is clear that "Universalism, in a variety of forms, continues to have appeal for contemporary faith, in both liberal and conservative circles." Theologian Steven Travis observes, "In recent years very few theologians have expounded and defended [the] traditional approach" of eternal hell."
"As Dr. Vernon Grounds once commented, "Seldom, I suppose, do we find ourselves brooding over the awesome doctrine of eternal punishment. Only on rarest occasions and then fleetingly is our mood that of Roden's famous statue, 'The Thinker,' who sits in mute amazement watching lost souls enter hell. What William Gladstone wrote about eternal punishment in the late 19th century is equally true today: it 'seems to be relegated at present to the far off corners of the Christian mind, and there to sleep in deep shadow.'" "
Richard J. Bauckham, lecturer in the history of Christian thought at the University of Manchester also points out the neglect of this doctrine when he writes, "... Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed, and no traditional doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment. Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before.... Among the less conservative, universal salvation, either as hope or as dogma, is now so widely accepted that many theologians assume it virtually without argument." "
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In His unfailing love {1Cor.13:8},
In Christ,
Laird - Universal Salvation